Sunday, June 18, 2006
I am reading a new book, "Adam's Curse." Lily bought this book a while back. I was looking for some thing to read and I remembered this book that she had read some time ago. When Lily was reading this book she talked to me about what the author was stating and it sparked my interest at the time, but I was reading another book. It book is about DNA, and how the Y chromosome could destroy men and other stuff that DNA controls.
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10 comments:
I have probably read that book more times then you, old and new. Then explain to me how the flood story is true, when the Epic of Gilgamesh which as written 500 years before the Bible has a flood story. How do you know the story in the Bible is true? and not copied? Gilgamesh was written around 2000 - 2100 BC; Genesis
was written about 1450 BC. Inquring minds want to know. For God to be God that means that God is infinite-- indefinable; so how can the Bible define God?
By the way I have read the Epic of Gilgamesh.
It is a knowledge thing and a faith thing. You can know God - but you can't know everything about Him. If I am going to put my life into someone's hand and trust Him with everything that I have - I am probably not going to want to be able to define Him and and understand everything about Him. If that were the case, then I might as well trust myself. It is also a faith thing - you are just going to have to believe. If you look at just the human eyeball - to think that they eyeball evolved over billions of years to have what we have today - to me - it takes more faith to believe that than to believe in God.
In the Bible, there are over 50 prophecies FULFILLED in the OT of the person of Jesus - if you were to take any 8 of those prophecies, the probablity of those being fulfilled in one person is like filling the state of Texas with silver dollars, 3 feet high - and finding the one colored red in one chance.
What about my question. I understand all the faith stuff, I have had 20 years church and preaching so you are not saying anything I have not heard and thought about. I have some problems and questions about the Bible and the flood question is one of them. How do you know that the Bible is true when "a flood story" was told 500 years before Genesis. Just so you know there was a flood, there is layer sediment around the earth that indicates that there was a flood.
As for Jesus there is very little emperical evidence that Jesus even existed. Now do not get me wrong, I wear a cross because it reprsents a way of life. I try to live by the golden rule because I believe that is the best way to live life. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and to love God with all your heart." I just have questions. Valid questions and I am not going to run from them. I remember setting in a adult sunday school class asking questions and all I got was blank stares, like I should not be asking difficult questions.
That does not anwser my question. Yes, I have read Job a million times. All you are doing is throwing cliches at me. I guess you have no real thoughts.
What you are saying is that you have no answer. I am not confused. I have desire to go into prisons, that is your thing. You started this by talking about men losing their faith, I just brought up one simple question and all you do is dance around and say look and this, and this, or what about this. I have questions because what I was told in church and other religious institutions did not correspond to things that happen in my life. Am I just to ignore that, some people choose too, I don't. I also have questions because of what I have learned in my classes and what I have read in different books.
i have a thought,why dont you get involved with doing something for people
You have no idea who your brother is. He has been "doing something" for people all his adult life. It doesn't take going into prisons to be involved with people. All it takes is the kind of loving heart and giving attitude that your brother has. The universe has a way of bringing the people you need to help into your life.
He asked a question, and all either of you can do is parrot what you've heard (or preached) from the pulpit for year upon year instead of using the brains you were created with to actually "reason together".
I'd like to know why it takes more faith to believe that the eyeball evolved over however many years than to believe in God. What a silly thing to say. Is not a day as a thousand years? How does anyone know just how the creator may have chosen to bring us all into existence? Why is it so difficult to mesh evolution with God? Perhaps if you actually studied it, learned what it really is instead of swallowing the propaganda of certain sects of religion, you might learn a bit more about the awesomeness of this being you have so much faith in.
Biology is a fascinating field, and every new discovery more wonderful than the last. You know the church has a history of condemning scientific discovery because it somehow feels threatened by it instead of recognizing the marvels it reveals, possibly giving us more and more clues about the nature of God.
As you two pontificate about things your brother has heard more times than can be counted, be careful you don't make the same mistake as the early church did in insisting that Galileo was wrong simply because Aristotle's view of the world had somehow become mixed up with Christianity and they couldn't distinguish between that and the reality of the universe. They preferred to hold to what was false in the name of religion than embrace a new revelation of creation.
All of which is beside the point. I'm just annoyed that you seem to think your brother needs your preaching. As if he couldn't preach to you a hundred times over...and better, I might add. If anyone knows his Bible, and what faith is all about, it's him. The thing is, he has spent the past few years reading other books as well. Books filled with discoveries that one cannot ignore and still be honest about the nature of this world we live in. It's fine to believe in God. It's fine to have faith. It's not fine to pretend there aren't questions that ought to be answered. When you use faith to plug your ears to knowledge, you are missing the biggest clue of all to the nature of "God"-creation itself.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Problem is, too many men aren't taking the trouble to have a good look around at what has been made, preferring to perpetuate the myths of long dead men who didn't know better.
When the two of you can show that you have actually thought about this and come to conclusions that aren't just mindless repetitions of every sermon you've ever heard, or every fundie pseudo-science book you've ever read, maybe y'all could have some decent conversation about your own beliefs about the nature of God and how he works in your lives.
...You have no idea who your brother is....
That is a correct comment. I can’t remember the last time that I have seen him or y’all – maybe early ‘90’s. When we moved to the States – he went back to Canada to finish high school. After he came back our family went its separate ways in the early 80’s. I guess we lived together for a couple of months(?) on Waller St – that was interesting! But I was involved with other things – struggling through my own adolescence. Then he joined the Army, went to Kansas, Alaska, and now in Florida. We’ve talked once, maybe twice on the phone in 25 years. The only news that I hear is from Jennifer. Now, this is not good or bad, or anyone’s fault – but as with any relationship, you cannot know someone unless you spend time with them. You can know about them – know the facts – as I have received from Jennifer – but I still really don’t know you.
As for the original question - ...Then explain to me how the flood story is true, when the Epic of Gilgamesh which as written 500 years before the Bible has a flood story. ...
I don’t see what the problem is – Gilgamesh was written 500 years previous – so are you saying that there can be nothing in the Bible that has happened in the lives of other people before the Bible was recorded. I am not getting silly, but if you follow that train of logic, you can’t believe that David had an affair with Bathsheba because I am sure that there are other reports of people and or kings having affairs. There are other creation accounts with different peoples. The Greeks have their own belief about creation.
...He asked a question, and all either of you can do is parrot what you've heard (or preached) from the pulpit for year upon year instead of using the brains you were created with to actually "reason together"....
I think that is an unfounded condemnation. I am a preacher - I can't deny that - but you can't deny my area of training as a way of explanation or reasoning. You can't separate my comments from myself - they are an overflow of what little bit I have inside.
...I'd like to know why it takes more faith to believe that the eyeball evolved over however many years than to believe in God. What a silly thing to say. Is not a day as a thousand years?...
These 2 comments have nothing to do with each other. What I see hear is a ‘conflict of interest’ The Bible is to believed – 100% It’s not that you can’t question it – some of your questions will be answered and some won’t. God does not owe us anything. But if you are going to believe that a day as a thousand years then you have to believe the flood story. You will drive yourself crazy trying to pick and choose what is believable and what isn’t.
...Biology is a fascinating field, and every new discovery more wonderful than the last....
I would encourage you to read The Chemistry of the Blood. M.R.Dehaan, MD, Zondervan Publishing House, 1943. ISBN 0-310-23291-0. You will see the creative hand of God all throughout biology.
...As you two pontificate about things...
hey, I made one comment!
...All of which is beside the point. I'm just annoyed that you seem to think your brother needs your preaching. As if he couldn't preach to you a hundred times over...and better, I might add....
I think that really depends on your definition of preaching.
...It's fine to believe in God. It's fine to have faith. It's not fine to pretend there aren't questions that ought to be answered. When you use faith to plug your ears to knowledge, you are missing the biggest clue of all to the nature of "God"-creation itself....
I certainly agree with that – but faith covers a lot of ground that I can’t. I guess I am just a simpleton in that regards. If the Bible says that God created the world in 6 days – he did!! I don’t have to know how or why or when. I am just going to believe. Now, just because I believe it, doesn’t mean that I don’t have questions about it. But those questions are not going to chip away at my belief in God. See creation is not about understanding how dirt was made – it is the beginning of what is the ending found in the person of Jesus. Everything points to Jesus. It is just like the 10 commandments –the purpose of the 10 Commandments are not rules to live by (even though all the rules in every land are born out of the 10 C’s) The 10 show us that we cannot do it on our own. It is not good enough to try to live by them – it required Jesus’ death on the cross. And even Jesus asked that same question – is there any other way? In the garden of Gethsemane, at the point of sweating blood (hermatidrosis), Jesus asked God to take away the cup – take away the crucifixion – is there any other way that sinful man can be reconciled to holy God – Jesus knew that answer. The Bible is not a history book, even though it contains history – it is not a biology book, even though it contains biology – it is not an archeology book – even though it contains archeology. The Bible is God’s love letter to us – it is an invitation for us to get to know Him – but to know everything about Him and to know the answers to all the questions – no!!! I don’t want to serve a god that I can know and understand everything about!
...When the two of you can show that you have actually thought about this and come to conclusions that aren't just mindless repetitions of every sermon you've ever heard, or every fundie pseudo-science book you've ever read,...
This says to me that your mind is already made up and you don’t really want answers. You want to somehow back up your own belief system and somehow blame something/someone on maybe some failures that you’ve had in your own life –personal, private and family.
Again, it comes down to my faith in my God. I believe that whatever comes my way, first does not surprise God, has not caught Him off guard, and is sifted through His will. He never promised that He would lift us out of troubles – He promised that He would walk beside us through them. I look back at my parents divorce and I am able to thank God that I went through those horrible, awful days. Am I thankful that they got divorced? – a million time NO!!! But what God taught me about Himself and about myself is unlearnable in any classroom or text book. I believe that God is who He is and He did what He did, and will do what He said He will do. I just comes down to my simpleton faith and willingness to believe.
You are all missing my point. I am not mad, I am not exacerbated, and my life is not lacking anything. Autotuner1 asked a question about faith, and I just gave one example that I have thought about for some time now. If you have a flood story 500 years before another food story how can the second flood story be "true" and not copied? How do you put your faith in the second story and say that is "true?" How do you know that the second story is not copied from the first story. Dennis how do you know that story in the Bible is valid? when it is not an original idea. Explain that to me. How do you put your faith in that?
As for my life I have always asked "why" about anything, even what I believe, whatever it is I have always want to understand it. Paul said to work out your salvation, now why did he say that? I guess he had to work some things out for himself. I have had some things happen in my life that have made me question my existance, what is the purpose of life here on the earth -- the purpose of the human race. I have some things that I need to work out, which I am doing the best I can. Are you telling me that everything that happens in the world makes perfect sense to you? in relation to God and the what the Bible says. Not to me.
I am not out to attack you or Autotuner1, that is not my purpose in this. I know that you do not know me, and I started this to start a dialog with you guys so we could get to know each other.
I have read alot of books of all different subjects and a result of all my reading is that I have questions. I also know my Bible, I have read it all the way through so many times that I have lost count, and I have read books on the Bible, so I have some understanding of the Bible and how it was composed.
unfounded condemnation
You're right, and I apologize. I don't know you any better than you know either of us. I was generalizing based on my long experience of Baptists, preachers, fundamentalists, etc. That was unfair.
the eyeball thing
Yes, the two comments are related. You say it takes more faith to believe the eyeball evolved over time than to believe in God. No. It doesn't. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe if there are indications through study and experimentation that this could be true. (I honestly don't know anything about how the eye developed, so don't take this to mean such. I'm simply saying that if scientific discoveries have shown possibilities, then based on knowledge we have to date, this might, indeed, be the case, and therefore reasonable to consider.) It is not reasonable to believe that some mysterious being did it all in six days. That doesn't fit with what we have discovered about the world or the universe. Also, since one cannot perform experiments on God, it is, indeed, entirely unreasonable to believe in his existence. Therefore, it DOES take more faith to believe in God than in the evolution of an eyeball over extreme periods of time. And please note that I am not saying there is no God. Whatever, whoever he/she/it is, I feel the presence every day.
Also, the day as a thousand years can be a clue as to just how long it really did take the creator to make it all happen, and if it took as long as those who have studied these things believe it did, why couldn't God use evolution as a vehicle? Why is that such a stumbling block to people? I'm not saying you because I really don't know how you view it. I only have that one statement of the eyeball as a clue and I made an assumption.
the flood story
No one is denying the flood story. The question is, if there are these stories from hundreds and thousands of years before the Bible, indeed, stories that were closer in time to the actual events, how is it that the Bible can be believed to be THE true account? Even the themes of virgin birth and resurrection of gods are older than the Bible. Just based on what I've seen men capable of doing and how they twist history and events to fit their own worldviews and purposes, how is it that the Bible was miraculously untainted from man's tendencies? I might assume that you would take the view that it is, indeed, a miracle, and that we must accept that on faith. I'm sorry. I can't.
Take any ministry, started by a vision from God, and have it carry on beyond the vision of the one who started it and it crumbles or becomes distorted. Too many fingers with agendas get into the pie. Not even just ministries, any good thing eventually becomes corrupted when it's lived a life beyond those who had the heart to make it live and a new good thing starts elsewhere to replace it. Or so it seems to me. And yet we are to believe that this book somehow is the book to end all books.
The creator is my God, not a book, and my experience, that kingdom within me, that Spirit that leads me into all truth will take precedence over a book that has passed through so many men's hands any day. I realize that I am using that book to explain myself. That's because I was raised in a culture that has been shaped by it. It's part of my vocabulary, my canon of knowledge. I am familiar with its themes and analogies and speak using them. It IS a good book. And it supports that many good books that came before it. But I don't believe it was ever meant to be taken literally. It's a guide. A pointer to a way of life that can lift us above our sorrows and grievances, not all of which are petty or small, but it isn't the book that gives us life. That comes from somewhere else entirely, and it is that in which I have faith.
mind already made up...don't want answers
Nope. Not true. We seek truth. And I enjoy rousing discussion. Thank you for your patience. But what you give is what we have left behind. Some of the old answers are no longer true for us. If they remain true for you, and if your life is an abundant one within those answers, that's truly a blessing. My mind is only made up in so far as I have lived your way of life for over 20 years and found it lacking. Let me clarify. The spirit of the creator, whatever that may be, was never lacking. But the religiosity that surrounded it was.
Well, I am quickly beginning to understand why family members don’t talk about religion and politics. Let me say a couple of comments and then to the rebuttals.
First, there is no animosity, anger, or even judgment in any comment – so please do not take anything personally. Second, the only feeling that I have is one of sadness and disappointment to see family members struggle with their faith. See, faith to me is my life – I have nothing and am nothing without it. I have come to realize that this is not about me – my life is not about me and trying to make me happy. Satisfaction and fulfillment is not found in me, but it is who I am – in Christ. Outside of Christ, I am a horrible, wretched, sinful person looking for peace and happiness in possessions, power, and popularity. Life is not about me – many people have an unholy addiction to self. They search for those things that will make themselves happy. Life is not a search for happiness – it is wrapping yourself up in the glory of God. Again, these things are foreign to many people because they are caught up in following the rules of religion. Christianity is not a religion – it is a relationship.
….(I tried to make it italics and got an error) Dennis how do you know that story in the Bible is valid? when it is not an original idea. Explain that to me. How do you put your faith in that? … What makes an idea or story true – when it was written down or when it happened? Which happened first the biblical story of the flood or the writing of the Gilgamesh? I believe it was the flood. Moses did not write the first 5 books of the Bible until around 1440BC – so is the creation story and everything in those first 5 books not valid because they are not ‘original’ in being written down?
Really, before I go any farther and discuss anything – I came across this verse this morning – 1 Thessalonians 2.13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, YOU ACCEPTED IT not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
I think we can have all the discussions in the world about every aspect about creation and the flood – but Randy you are playing chess and I am playing checkers – it’s the same board, but the games are totally different. I have accepted the Bible “not as the word of men, but as…the word of God.” I am not sure where you are. Again, not condemnation or judgment – just different sides of the world (pun intended!!).
….Paul said to work out your salvation, now why did he say that?.... The biblical concept of salvation needs to be understood in order to comprehend Paul's intent here. Salvation has many aspects, including a present one. Regeneration initiates the believer into a life with obligations. Acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord obligates the believer to obey him. Hence, working out salvation does not mean "working for" salvation, but making salvation operational. It refers to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuits of obedience in the process of sanctification. You can’t work out salvation unless it has first been worked in!
….Are you telling me that everything that happens in the world makes perfect sense to you? in relation to God and the what the Bible says. Not to me….No – not everything. But again, I just have to trust Him – and I am willing to do just that. Some of the most ungodly things have been done to me and my family by people in the church that I have pastored. Both Jody and I have struggled through and with these situations. Both asking ‘why’ and ‘how’. For some of those situations – God has let us see into and through those situations – others we still don’t know why? But again, I just have to trust Him. He is God and I am not. It is like a simple illustration that I use … if a young child grabs and knife and starts to play with it – as a parent you take that knife away –why? Because you don’t want them to have fun? No, it is because you love them and you don’t want them to get hurt. As they grow older, they will understand. Now, will we understand everything? – yes – but our life is not over when our 75 years are through here.
To me – it comes down to a faith issue – of just simple child-like faith. I choose to believe. I guess, my main concern is whether you are secure in the fact that you know that you will go to heaven when you die. It is not that you know of the right answer, but you know The Answer. There are a lot of people that know of the right answers – but they don’t know The Answer. Some people will miss heaven by 12 inches – they have God in their head, but they don’t have Him in their heart. The belief in the flood story is not a crucial axiom in the picture of salvation. God will ask you what you have done with Jesus and not what you believe about the flood (this is my hypothetical question)
Now for Lily
….Also, the day as a thousand years can be a clue as to just how long it really did take the creator to make it all happen…. This verse that you have used is not used in the context of creation. Peter is uses this phrase in talking about the end of the world not the creation of the world. Now – you need to make the decision of whether you are going to believe the Bible or not. You can’t use it to substantiate an argument and then turn around and say you don’t believe it like you did when you said …how is it that the Bible was miraculously untainted from man's tendencies? I might assume that you would take the view that it is, indeed, a miracle, and that we must accept that on faith. I'm sorry. I can't…. Are you going to pick and choose the miracles that believe? The birth of Christ was an incredible miracle – outside of all the OT prophecies. If you are not going to believe the miracles in the Bible , then I would expect there is nothing special going on in your house on the 25th of December.
….My mind is only made up in so far as I have lived your way of life for over 20 years and found it lacking. Let me clarify. The spirit of the creator, whatever that may be, was never lacking. But the religiosity that surrounded it was…. I would agree with you and say that I have seen that in so many people. The key word is religiosity – that is not what God wants – He wants a relationship. Many people are caught up in what they feel that they must do to gain God’s approval. There is nothing that you can do to make God love you any more or any less. His love for you is based on HIS perfect character. His love for us is unwavering, unconditional, and unchanging.
This is my totally my opinion of y’alls situation – tell me where I am incorrect. Both of you grew up in a Baptist church (i.e. Waller). Something happened (disillusioned by something a minister, leader, teacher did) and you went somewhere else. You ended up in a Pentecostal-charismatic ‘flavored’ church. What I have experienced, seen, heard, learned is that these churches are very emotional and the teaching is very situational. (I hate to make broad-generalizations) An example of situational teaching is to use the verse out of Isaiah 53.3 – “by His stripes we are healed.” This verse and chapter talks about the spiritual healing that Christ provided for us on the cross- salvation. By his stripe(death) we are healed – we have been brought into right relationship with God. This is not physical healing for every cough that we have. If our cough does not go away, then we are condemned because of our lack of faith. The very preachers that teach this – take their glasses on and off to read their notes. As a result of the up and down emotions and very weak Biblically-based teaching (taking half a verse and applying it to every area of a person’s life) your spirits were left wanting. But along with all this came the rules and regulations of what you thought your church wanted from you. As a result, you got burned out on church, religion and everything else that goes along with it. You start looking in different areas trying to find different answers to the questions you already know. And the only person smiling now is the enemy – Jesus said “the thief (the enemy) comes to kill, steal, and destroy, but I have come to give you life and fill it full of meaning.”
Again, no anger, judgment or condemnation in these lines – just honest thoughts and opinions.
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