Wherefore , as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12
For all have sinned ... Romans 3:23
That is thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
I used the KJV because that is what Jesus used in the temple.
Those statements are not congruent because the first statement there is no free choice, by default I am on the losing team, I am the enemy; just because I was born into this existance with no part in the decision being made by ME. Then in the 3rd verse I have to make a free choice, I have to choose God? In the first statement no free choice, and then the last statement I make a free choice. I have to make a choice dependent on a previous choice that I had no part in. That is wrong.
So then after a number of years I come to a age ( or maturity or accountabilty) that I am to recongize that I am sinner with me not be able to chose if I want to be a sinner, the choice has already be made. The Churches response for this is that I would have made the same choice as Adam, but that is not a true statement. I am not Adam, and we are not all born with the same personalities, we are all different; you can not make a blanket statement that I would have choosen to disobey God in the Garden just like Adam. So basically we come into this existance with no free choice of determining our status before God.
So then once I understand my place before God, then I am given a free choice; why a free choice now? I have to choose Jesus so I can go to Utopia, or if stay with the choice that I was given ( with out my choosing) I am bannished to Morgan City, La. Where is my freedom????
Why do I have choose in the first place? Why am I in the middle of this war between God and Satan in the first place? When I choose to die, why can I not choose to go into non-existance? I am not going to play this game.
My conclusion is that religion is man's attempt to explain the world in which we live in, but religion falls short no matter what religion you believe in trying to explain our existance, and religion has been used to regulate people's lives by people who think they know better then you on how to live your life. Plus, political power.
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15 comments:
Amen.
Sometimes we can agree. ;-)
ok i will bite,
you said "when i choose to die" i wasnt aware that that was a personal choice-so in that statement and the folowing one you are choosing to put your head in the sand.To say that just because i dont believe what you say and i wont believe any thing you say is choosing to stay ignorant of the personal relationship that you can have with your heavenly creator .if you walked up to someone and saw that they had just the simpelest object(it really doesnt matter what but lets say an egg beater) and you said "hey were did you get that" and they said o they found it ,and they told you that no one had made that the metel and the wood just formed a useable tool- i would have to believe that you would walk away wondering what loonie ward did they escape from-i just have to have faith that one day you and your better half-will find a relationship with the Father that bring peace and understand of why your life is the way it is.just saying- it was your best thinking that got you here.
What are you talking about?????
Autotuner, I want you to explain to me how your comments are relevant to what I said point by point.
I used the KJV because that is what Jesus used in the temple. --THAT’S PRETTY FUNNY – JESUS DIDN’T SPEAK ENGLISH – HE WOULD HAVE SPOKEN HEBREW AND/OR ARAMAIC.
Those statements are not congruent because the first statement there is no free choice, by default I am on the losing team; I am the enemy; just because I was born into this existence with no part in the decision being made by ME. Then in the 3rd verse I have to make a free choice, I have to choose God? –NO, YOU DON’T HAVE TO CHOOSE GOD – YOU CAN CHOOSE TO LIVE FOR YOURSELF-HE WON’T MAKE YOU.
In the first statement no free choice, and then the last statement I make a free choice. I have to make a choice dependent on a previous choice that I had no part in. –YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE NOT ON A PREVIOUS CHOICE BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE ON YOUR CONDITION. THE CONDITION IS THAT YOU ARE A SINNER AND YOU NEED THAT TO BE FIXED.
That is wrong. IT’S WRONG THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE? WHAT’S WRONG WITH CHOOSING A LIFE FILLED WITH INNER PEACE AND JOY THAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE CAN’T TAKE AWAY.
So then after a number of years I come to a age ( or maturity or accountability) that I am to recognize that I am sinner with me not be able to chose if I want to be a sinner, the choice has already be made. The Churches response for this is that I would have made the same choice as Adam, but that is not a true statement. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT ANYWHERE AND AT ANYTIME – BUT THAT CERTAINLY DOESN’T MEAN IT HASN’T BEEN SAID – BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT TEACHING. YOUR ARE RIGHT ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO CHOOSE WHETHER YOU ARE A SINNER OR NOT - BUT IT'S NOT ANYTHING WE CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT NOW.
I am not Adam, and we are not all born with the same personalities, we are all different; you cannot make a blanket statement that I would have chosen to disobey God in the Garden just like Adam. So basically we come into this existence with no free choice of determining our status before God. HAVING NOW LIVED IN 4 COUNTRIES AND MY 40 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE – PEOPLE ARE THE SAME – EVEN IN THE CHURCHES -- GOOD AND BAD – LANGUAGE MAY BE DIFFERENT, LIVING CONDITIONS DIFFERENT – BUT PEOPLE ARE THE SAME – DIFFERENT COLORS BUT THEY ARE THE SAME. NOW, WE ARE DIFFERENT THAN ADAM BECAUSE WE ARE BORN WITH A PROPENSITY TO SIN –THAT’S BECAUSE OF ADAM’S SIN.
So then once I understand my place before God, then I am given a free choice; why a free choice now? I have to choose Jesus so I can go to Utopia,--CALLED HEAVEN -- or if stay with the choice that I was given ( without my choosing) I am banished to Morgan City, La. WHAT’S IN MORGAN CITY – I WOULD PROBABLY SAY SOMEWHERE IN IOWA! WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT CHOOSING GOD'S WAY? IN ME CHOOSING TO DO THINGS GOD'S WAY, I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ALL THE PAIN THAT SIN CAUSES - YES, I DO SIN, BUT I KNOW THAT I HAVE MADE A LOT OF RIGHT CHOICES THAT HAVE KEPT ME AWAY FROM A LOT OF CONSEQUENCES OF BAD CHOICES.
Where is my freedom???? YOUR FREEDOM IS WHERE IT ALWAYS IS – IT’S YOUR CHOICE – YOU CAN CHOOSE HEAVEN OR YOU CAN CHOOSE HELL – IT’S THAT EASY.
Why do I have choose in the first place? Why am I in the middle of this war between God and Satan in the first place? When I choose to die, why can I not choose to go into non-existence? I am not going to play this game. YOU ARE IN THIS WAR BECAUSE YOU ARE CREATED BY HIM – YOU ARE GOD’S CREATION--YOU ARE GOD'S CREATION --- HE CREATED YOU, LOVES YOU, SENT HIS SON TO PAY YOUR SIN DEBT AND HAS AN INCREDIBLE PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE. KIND OF LIKE WHEN YOUR CHILDREN SAID SOMETHING SIMILAR TO YOU AS A PARENT DURNG THEIR TEEN YEARS. THEY ARE YOUR CHILDREN AND YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBLITIY TO RAISE THEM THE RIGHT WAY – THEY HAD A CHOICE WHETHER TO OBEY YOU OR NOT. THEY DIDN’T CHOOSE TO BE BORN OR TO HAVE YOU AS A FATHER. YOU HAVE BEEN DEALT A HAND AND CHOOSING NOT TO PLAY IS NOT AN OPTION WHETHER YOU THINK ITS FAIR OR NOT.
My conclusion is that religion is man's attempt to explain the world in which we live in, but religion falls short no matter what religion you believe in trying to explain our existence, and religion has been used to regulate people's lives by people who think they know better then you on how to live your life. Plus, political power. RELIGION IS ALWAYS MAN'S SEEKING/ATTEMPTING TO GET/GO TO GOD OR SOME HIGHER PLANE OF LIVING. JEHOVAH GOD WANTS A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU – HE HAS SOUGHT YOU OUT -- YOU DON’T HAVE TO WORK TO GET TO HEAVEN LIKE OTHER RELIGIONS – IT WAS PURCHASED FOR YOU - A FREE GIFT – IT’S YOUR CHOICE TO RECEIVE IT OR NOT.
I GUESS THAT’S WHAT LIFE IS – A SERIES OF CHOICES – MAKE GOOD CHOICES; LIVE A GOOD LIFE – MAKE BAD CHOICES; LIVE A BAD LIFE!
I GUESS, SINCE YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE WHETHER YOU GET TO CHOOSE OR NOT - YOU BETTER MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE -WHETHER YOU THINK IT IS FAIR OR NOT
I used CAPS on the previous post to differentiate our comments - I wasn't YELLING!
I used the KJV because that is what Jesus used in the temple. --THAT’S PRETTY FUNNY – JESUS DIDN’T SPEAK ENGLISH – HE WOULD HAVE SPOKEN HEBREW AND/OR ARAMAIC.
I know, just a little joke, there are Christians I have met in church that believe that, anyways a little humor.
Those statements are not congruent because the first statement there is no free choice, by default I am on the losing team; I am the enemy; just because I was born into this existence with no part in the decision being made by ME. Then in the 3rd verse I have to make a free choice, I have to choose God? –NO, YOU DON’T HAVE TO CHOOSE GOD – YOU CAN CHOOSE TO LIVE FOR YOURSELF-HE WON’T MAKE YOU.
You miss the point, I am on the wrong team to begin with, the decision made without MY input. NO FREE CHOICE. How is that right?
I think that so much of what we experience in life has to do with how we look at that particular experience- i think that you arent looking at life correctly-When your father and mother made you you were blessed to be one out of a million (sperms)that fought your way to the egg so from the very start of your life you were picked because your Heavenly Father thought you had what it takes.So be thankful you didnt end up like the other sperms and just wiped away.So stand up and choose your inheritance
Choose what inheritance? There is no choice in the beginning. I really do not understand how what you said relates to what I said.
What gives you the right to think that you had the right to give input?
Why do you think that you are on the wrong team? Maybe you can change your perspective. You have a starting point and you have a choice to go either of 2 places. - Your choice!
So you are saying that we have "no right" in the beginning of our lives then, which means that we are not free to choose anything other then what God dictates.
That not what that means! Who says you have the right to have a right.
Your 2+2=68 doesn't add correctly. Just because you think that you have no right in how you begin your life doesn't mean that you are not free to choose. I didn't have a say in what wonderful family I was born into - that certainly doesn't mean I haven't made any choices since I was born - that just doesn't make sense.
I choose to respond to your comment - God didn't make me!
After watching Star Wars, I know that Darth Vader cuts off Luke's hand - just because I know that doesn't mean that I made it happen. (kind of a cheesy illustration)
You have an option - you can respond to my comment or not - God's not going to make you - he just knows what you are going to do.
What gives you the right to think that you had the right to give input?
That not what that means! Who says you have the right to have a right.
What do these two statements mean?
Do I have the right to go in to the President's office and give him my opinion about anything.
Just because I am an American citizen doesn't give me the right to go and do anything I choose.
Are you not saying that you should have the right to choose which 'team' you are on. Why do you think you have that right?
Your foundational presupposition is that you should have a right to do .... Who says that you should have that right? Is that an unalienable right endowed by the Creator?
That is my point, we are not free, the choice has been dictated by God to us.
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