Monday, June 04, 2007
There is a Adam and Eve museum, I do not remember were it is located, but it has scientific inaccuracies. It does not matter what you believe, emperical truth is "emperical" there is no debate. This is just like the Catholic Church in the face of the truth stating that the Earth is the center of the our planetary system. This museum states that the earth is only 6,000 years old, and that man walk with the dinosaurs-- this is just wrong and the museum is wondering why they are getting flack from the scientific community. For the record the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and there have been no human foot prints discovered with fossil remains of dinosaurs.
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38 comments:
There is no scientific method that can positively prove Earth is very old. Absolute proof of an old Earth would require billions of years of on-site measurements and observations.
Well then, enlight me. How old is the earth? How many years ago did the dinosaurs live?
I believe that the age of the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years young.
Why, you ask - according to those who believe in the evolutionary beginning of the universe, comets are the same age as the universe but the maximum age of comets is 10,000 years old.
I found this interesting article in the Journal of Geophysical Research. It said "that helium produced by radioactive decay in deep, hot rocks has not had time to escape. Though the rocks are supposed to be over one billion years old, their large helium retention suggests an age of only thousands of years." Oct 1982
And simply, written history is too short. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, certainly someone would have made some kind of attempt to make a mark or something on a wall somewhere - all we have is what can be dated to about 4000-5000 BC.
If Stone Age man lived 100,000 years ago, scientists estimate a population of over 4 BILLION Cro Magnon and Neanderthals - certainly more fossils than what they have found would be closer to a million than thousands that they report.
Archaeological evidence shows that Stone Age men were as intelligent as we are. It is very improbable that none of the four billion people should discover that plants grow from seeds.
Just some thoughts.
All the books that I have read date the earth 4 billion to 4.5 billion years old by radiometric dating; which is the measured by the decay of long-lived radioactive isotopes of elements that occur naturally in rocks and minerals and that decay with half lives of 700 million to more than 100 billion years to stable isotopes of other elements.
There was not man billion of years ago. Through DNA modern man can only be traced about 150,000 to 200,000 years ago to some where in North Africa, so there was no one there to leave a mark.
The oldest tools that have been discovered are from the Lower Pleistocene Age which is about 1.8 to .8 million years a go. Man has only been on the earth for a short time.
Australian aborigines have been in Australia for 40,000 years, why is there not millions and millions of them?
Every 100,000 years the magentic poles reverse themselfs and it has done this many times. Even now we are in the process of the poles reversing. There was a show on NOVA about the process.
The earth is older then 10,000 years.
What I read about radiometric dating is that it does not prove that the Earth is millions of years old. The vast age has simply been assumed. The calculated radiometric ‘ages’ depend on the assumptions that are made. The results are only accepted if they agree with what is already believed. The only foolproof method for determining the age of something is based on eyewitness reports and a written record.
There are not millions of Abo's in Australia because of a flood 4000 years ago.
You say man has been around for 150,000 years - none were smart enough to make ANY record whatsoever until about 4000 years ago or so. Just doesn't make a whole lot sense to me.
All the scientific evidence points that the universe is 13.7 billion years old and the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
I have never read anything that stated that the comets were the same age as the universe. Simple logic -- that's false.
Well, apparently you haven't read everything there is to know about comets - if you have then you would have read that comets are said to be the same age of the universe - so even simplier logic says that you are not correct in your assumption.
Where is the empirical evidence proving that the universe is billions of years old? It is just not there - it is assumptions - just like the assumption that said that the earth was the center of the universe in the middle ages.
Fine, believe what you want to believe. All the professors that I tallk to here, physics, biologist, geo-earth professors state that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. I believe them.
But they do not have the emperical evidence that you promote - its just not there - it is all built on assumptions.
I am not going to argue this point anymore.
"The putative age of the Earth, about 4,500,000,000 years is based on the radiometrically measured age of meteorites, and is also about 500,000,000 years older than the oldest rocks. But regardless of the accuracy of this age for the earth, the existence of rocks circa 4,000,000,000 years old puts the squeeze on a 10,000 year old Earth.
So the natural response from a young-Earth perspective is to claim that radiometric dating is inaccurate or untrustworthy. Unfortunately, while the young-Earthers are long on criticism, they are short on support. It's easy to assert that radiometric methods don't work, but it's quite another thing to prove it. This the young-Earth creationist regularly fails to do."
http://www.tim-thompson.com/radiometric.html
The evidence is there.
For the record - radiometric dating is unreliable. You can send the same sample to 3 different laboratories, test it 3 different times at each, and get 9 wildly varying different dates. Here are the problems with radiometric isotope dating:
1 - You have to assume that throughout the course of its existence, no radioactive material has been added to or taken from the sample, and you must also assume that nothing has altered the state of radioactivity in sais sample.
2- when radiometric dating is done, the "correct" date is arrived at by making the assumption that the sample must fall within a given date range. When a sample tests at an age that is highly unexpected, it is assumed that there was some error in the test and it is re-tested until the "expected" date is arrived at. There is an assumed date to begin with. Hardly a "scientific" method, wouldn't you agree?
3 - the "expected" date range used in radiometric tests involve circular reasoning among the scientific disciplines. The ones doing the test say that "the geologists collected the sample from this location, so we know it must be between X and Y years old". The geologists in turn say "we know that items collected from this site must be between X and Y years old because radiometric dating tells us so".
You can throw radiometric dating out the window as a reliable means of proving the Earth's age.
BTW - I've been in the labs and have seen how it works. People who conduct such tests don't want everyone to realize how unreliable they are - it would do them out of a job, not to mention a lifetime of work. Just because someone with a PhD says it is so, doesn't make it so.
So tell me , what do you believe about the earth? - how did it come into existence?
Does God (the perfect God of the Bible) have any place in your belief system?
What do you believe about evolution? - did everything start from a primordial goo and now everything is a result of that?
Does God have influence or bearing in today's events or your life?
In response to your questions -
The Earth was created. In fact, the entire universe was created. One of the laws of thermodynamics is the tendency toward entrophy - the tendency for things to become more disorganized or "messed up". The only time things have been noticed to be "improved upon" are when some form of life acts upon them. If you follow this back to its logical conclusion, SOMEBODY had to make all of this. Matter does NOT organize itself.
God absolutely has a place in my belief system. (The perfect God of the Bible).
The more I examine Evolution, the more I realize how backwards the whole premise is. The idea is that mutations drive genetic changes to alter, add to, and IMPROVE the existing genetic code. However, I am not aware of any mutation that has added to the available genetic information of an organism. Quite the opposite in fact. Mutated organisms are observed to be weaker than their unaltered cousins and are LESS fit to survive. This actually goes along with the laws of thermodynamics. Things are getting more "messed up". There IS evidence that certain of today's species may have some common ancestory - but these are still same "kinds" and are still capable of interbreeding. Lions and tigers, dogs and wolves, horses and donkeys are some examples. The genetic information has been "sorted out" into seperate species, but not altered. Its just that the original parent carried genetic coding for the characteristics of each of those sub-species. The original parent was probably a stronger, hardier creature because of it. Just as mongrel dogs tend to be much healthier than purebreds. Evolutionists love to mention recent mutated bacterium that are resistant to pennicillin. What they fail to mention is WHY they are more resistant. The mutation has actually deleted a section of the genetic code that regulates the production of a pennicillin-resiting enzyme. So they "overproduce" it, making them drug-resistant. BUT - you usually only catch these bugs in sterile environments such as hospitals where there are no "wild" bacteria to compete with. You see, these mutations cannot survive in an environment where they must compete for resources with their unmutated bretheren!
God would certainly have bearing on today's events. If he created it all, and we have messed it all up, I would certainly expect that he would want to fix it. I believe he has a plan to do so.
The earth magnetic field undergoes reversals where north and south poles reverse themselfs. According to the Geological Survey of Canada, the earth has undergone this change 400 time in the life of the earth. If the earth is 10,000 years old that means every 25 years the poles switch.
So God created the earth:
1. The only way God could figure how to dissipate heat on the earth was through hurricanes and in the process destroy people's lives.
2. The only way God could figure how to manage energy of the earth crust was through earthquakes, and destroy people's lives that way.
3. God decided to make man so that man could only drink fresh water, and then put man on a planet with only 3% to 4% of the water is fresh. Great plan.
4. Then God decided to create the sun for warmth. But God put UV radiation in the mix for what? To sell suntan lotion.
5. Then God's plan was to make the earth so that food could only be grown in certain places on planet earth, well the rest of the places that does not support planet growth-- tough luck. Why did God not create us so we received our nourishment from the air, it would make life simpler.
6. Why did God make bacteria to kill us?
Great plan.
You're assuming that the magnetic pole reversals have all occurred at regular intervals. I submit to you that perhaps many of them occurred in sequence during an extremely catastrophic event, like, say, a global flood? The pattern of magnetic reversals has been observed on the ocean floor at places where tectonic plates join, and it seems to substantiate this.
A global flood would explain many of the questions you have - violent weather patterns, extremely high mineral deposits in the ocean, extinction of many plant species that were once used as food. Life after such a catastrophe would be much harder, wouldn't you agree?
The Bible was written long before there was a such thing as "science", but the story of the flood is there, and it does seem to fit the situation. Circumstantial? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
So, you gonna answer any of my questions?
So tell me , what do you believe about the earth? - how did it come into existence?
You already know what I believe about the earth. The earth is 4.5 billion years old, from all the books that I have read about the subject. How many books have you read about the subject?
Does God (the perfect God of the Bible) have any place in your belief system?
Which version of the Bible are you talking about?
Now that I have read a number of books of the history of the Bible, and how the Bible was written and how there is NOT any historical evidence to support the major suppostions of the Bible -- it's a book. A book about a race of people creating a history for themselves to justify their place in the world. A book trying to explain the world that they live in, just like other religious books of the world.
A finite book can not encompus a infinite being. The every act of defining who or what God "is," God becomes finite, then ceases to be God.
What do you believe about evolution? - did everything start from a primordial goo and now everything is a result of that?
No one can prove how life started. You can'nt. I do not know. I just know that I exist.
Does God have influence or bearing in today's events or your life?
I guess God had a bearing in your life since God killed one of your friends. You said that the Lord took him home, which means to me that God killed him. Tell how I am wrong?
I guess God has a bearing in the world; someone created all the suffering in the world. It was not me.
Does God have an influence in my life? I am doing what God put I my heart, I am becoming an astrophysicist and I am working with computers -- I am doing stuff that fits my personality, since God is the one that created my personality.
The flood is not the answer. Try again.
How is the flood not the answer? There is more than enough evidence to support such an event having happened, and cultures throughout the world have some version of the flood story. You can't say it never happened, so there must be some other reason why you say it is not the answer?
I never said that the flood never happened. I just do not believe that the flood effected the interior of the earth. The fact still remains the earth has changed poles 400 times. 10,000 years is not enough time, or the poles should have changed in our life time 2 or 3 times. It is not there.
Sorry, I been off line for some reason - had to restore back to the first of the month.
Inca - you did not answer my questions -you just gave some weak philosophical excuses for not answering them - I didn't think that they were that hard - just tell me what you believe.
How did this earth come into existence - not the age - Big Bang - God spoke it - just happened - what?
Does God have any place in your belief system - your world view - or is He just for the weak-minded, un-scientific people?
Does God have any bearing on your life? --not a translation of the Bible - again, through the scientific process of textual criticism, 98% of the text has manuscript evidence that corroborates itself - internal and external sources - the remaining 2% are of non-doctrinal concerns that does not effect anything - i.e. should it be 'a' or 'the'.
As for God killing my friend - nothing could be farther from the truth. Death was not in God's original plan - death is a result of man choice - Rom 3.23 - For the wages of sin is death - death is man's fault - all your 'woe is me' stuff doesn't float - at all.
God created perfection - man's choices messed it up. Kind of like with our children - we try to provide the best for them - they make wrong choices (sex,drugs,rock-n-roll) - Is it right for them to blame you/us for the predicaments they get themselves into. No, their choices messed up their lives - our only fault may lay in if we have provided a positive enviroment for them to grow up in.
Where is the empirical date for pole reversals - pretty much just assumptions - everything that you have told me is based on assumptions - the article above this post on your homepage is based on assumptions - it is what they believe - not proven.
Who is Trumpets? I like his stuff!
In the States in 9 days!
I TOLD you the Canadain Geological Survay stated the poles have reversed 400 times. Can you not understand that!!!!!!!!!! If you do not believe them, then prove them wrong. If you understand volcanoes, and plate techonics then you would understand how they arrived at this number. But you do'nt.
There is no God.
There was no Abraham, no Moses, no David, no Joseph. There was no slavery or woundering for 40 years. Isreal came from the Cannanites.
Is that clear now!
What you are not saying about the 6ooo manuscripts is that they were changed by the scribes when they did not agree with something. I have the documention-- the proof how things where changed. I have read the book by the person that research all this. All you will say is that he lied. Fine.
If God is alive why do you need people to give you money? Why do you live behind guards, and barb wire fence, is that the only way God can keep you safe? When I did missionary work I was with the people and I lived with the people.
But like I said before you can not consider any of this, because if you do your life will unravel. You can only see the Baptist (lack of a better term)way.
No matter what you say the earth is 4.5 billion years old because that is what evidence points to.
So the first 25 or so years of your life - related to church - was all a waste of time - you say there is no god - so are you claiming now to be an agnostic.
Again, I will repeat myself and make things clear. As many books you have read that says the earth is 4.5 billion years old - there are as many that says the earth is a whole lot younger. As many that talk about evolution, as many talk about creation - it all comes down to your belief system - and that is what I am trying to understand - because you fail to answer many direct questions that I have posed.
If I say there is no God what does that mean? By the way I saw Jesus at the gas station; he sold me some M&M's.
Science is more then a belief system, but you do not understand that.
What question did I fail to answer? and I will answer it.
Why do you not answer my 6 questions?
I really do not understand why you are debating me, you only have one point of view that will never change. Dust in the wind.
You are the one that said that my religious experiance not real. So you have answered your own question since your are spiritually superior to me. So why are you asking me? lol
400 divided you 10000 = 25 years (approx) How many times have the poles changed in your lifetime? I ask you again. None. Maybe the earth is 10,001 or maybe 10,100. Lets see 400 divided by 10,100 = 25.25; it really did not change that much. Maybe the earth is 10,500; let see
10,500 divided by 400 = 26.25 years. Still not enough. Maybe the earth is a little bit older;
10,900; that only equalls 27.25 years between poles changing. Even if the change is not constant, 10,000 years is not enough time. Maybe God had nothing to do, so He changed the poles 399 times in first week; will I guess He had to do it on day 6 because He was done with everything on day 7. So on day 6 or 5 or 4 or 3 or day 2; just maybe God divided (lets see 399 divided by 6 = 66.6; o no the mark of the beast but in an older manuscript the number was 616, so how do we know which number is inspired by God? Decisions, decisions. Anyways on each day that God was creating (or recreating as some think) God reversed the poles 66.6 times a day, plus all the other stuff He was creating. That sounds logical.
Inca...it is apparent that your mind is made up. No attempts at appealing to your intellect will help. I do hope that the belief system you have been led to works out for you......
Although, I must say - according to the Bible's account of the flood, the water came from the "fountains of the great deep" (Genesis 7:11) - the INTERIOR of the Earth. This is actually mentioned before the "windows of heaven" (rain). Some even speculate that the rain was actually an after-effect of all that HOT water spewing up from the ground. The magnetic field reversals you tout have been recorded on the ocean floor at the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Iron-bearing minerals pushed up through the crust give testament to magnetic field reversals. If it was a gradual process that takes place at regular intervals, you would expect to see an even "zebra-stripe" pattern to the ferrous minerals' magnetic readings. However, as you drill down into the basalt, the magnetic polarity changes in patches, with NO CONSISTENT PATTERN. This is what you would expect with RAPID formation of the minerals, combined with RAPID magnetic field reversals (as in some catastrophic event, like say, a global flood). Check out research : Coe, Prevot, and P. Camps, "New Evidence for Extraordinary Rapid Change of the Geomagnetic Field During a Reversal," Nature 374:687-692, 1995.
The Bible is not a scientific journal. You still have not addressed the 400 times that the poles have reversed in 10,000 years. How many times have the poles reversed in the last 500 years? Ahhhhhhhh none. Or last 1000 years. Ahhhhh none.
I am fine, never been happier, plus you never answered my 6 questions either.
Well, help me out - what 6 questions - I saw a post with 6 comments, but not six questions - one question about bacteria - are those the six questions?
No, you didn't answer my questions - you answered some of them with some other questions and other comments not related to the answer of the question.
I didn't say your religious experiences weren't real - I asked you a question about them. (Well, I just re-read my post and it sounds like a statement, sorry, I meant it as a question) No, I don't feel religiously superior to you - I don't measure myself against anyone - I try to measure myself against the standard that Jesus set forth in Phil. 2
What post where your questions in?
You are right - the Bible is not a scientific journal. BUT - it is a history, reporting actual events that have occurred as seen by actual eyewitnesses. And, yes I did address the pole reversals - I said that I believe they took place rapidly, as the evidence seems to support, as in hundreds of times over the course of 40 days! You see, what I am saying is that the pole reversals did not occur at regular intervals over thousands of years, but very frequently during a much shorter cataclysmic event! It is a common mistake to assume that all observed phenomena occur at the same observed pace. You would then assume that geological features are created very slowly and regularly at the observed pace. But things don't always plod along! When Mt. Saint Helens erupted back in the 80s, we learned just how quickly the landscape can be altered and varying layers of soil and rock can be laid down! This put to lie the assumption that it takes tens of thousands of years for sedimentary layers to form. This is just one example of that kind of thinking. The same is true of your pole reversals.
Um....my original "flood" post was the answer to most of your six questions. Read it again and you will see what I mean. But, I guess I didn't address your bacteria question well enough. I'll do that.
It is common for people to ask "If there is a kind and loving God, why do bad things exist?" In the beginning, bad things DIDN'T exist. Mankind brought bad things into the world with sin. This is when all of creation became "cursed". Death became a reality, and bacteria that once served a useful purpose (many still do, you see) became deadly. Perhaps it was a change in the bacteria. Perhaps it was a change in US - I truly believe that we are not so strong and intelligent as our predecessors. Look at the accomplishments of ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome. Our "advanced" technology would not be possible if we weren't standing on the shoulders of giants. We, and everything else, are actually degenerating, not evolving. This is why more species go extinct, and more and more genetic diseases crop up. Things are getting WORSE, not better - and they will continue to do so. This IS in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics. And the Bible explains it. Creation was perfect, then we screwed up. And things have been going downhill ever since.
I guess all the scienist of the world are lying. Thank-you for enlighting me. Have a happy 10,000 years.
Well, ALL scientists don't agree. It is easy to say "All the scientists in the world", but that is not true! Scientists disagree on many things, including where we came from, and how old the earth is. The Intelligent Design movement is NOT a Christian organization. Its member scientists have many different theories about where we came from (some think aliens are responsible). What they do agree on is that EVOLUTION DOES NOT WORK. And these are SCIENTISTS, you understand. You see, the "millions of years" philosophy comes out of the evolution movement. Because they say that mutations drive evolutionary change, and no beneficial mutations have ever been observed, they need EXTREMELY LARGE quantities of time to explain why! They say "well, we can't observe evolution because it takes too long to operate". It is the only way they could even begin to get people to believe it. It is not even an operational scientific method! You can't test it in the laboratory! (Takes too long, remember?)But, get it published in the textbooks, teach it as gospel truth, and there you go. Throw God out the window. It has become so indoctrinated into our culture that people just can't let go of it, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You know why I think people are so willing to accept it? Without God, there is no one to answer to. People want to be able to do what they want, and decide on their own what is right or wrong. If we have a creator, though, there IS an ultimate authority, and we are not the masters of our own fates and desires. There could be consequences! Heaven forbid.....
I could hunt down plenty of papers for you....but this is pointless.
I'm sorry you you don't believe Jesus ever existed. That's too bad.
No need to be insulting about those of us who have "religion". If thats what the conversation has de-evolved into, we might as well stop. I'm not going to sling insults back and forth about who is "smart".
I've read some of your other blog posts now. I see you are a new college student, and you are interested in astronomy. Thats great. Take the time to find out WHY some scientists say what they say - what experiments have been done, what the problems with them might be, what more recent research has discredited older ideas....science is constantly changing, with new theories replacing or revising others. I found the lab work in my college astronomy classes particularly fun. Physics is typically a good OPERATIONAL science, where you can do experiments in real time and gain useful results from them - perhaps even help develop some new technology. And don't take everything you hear from professors or read in the textbooks as gospel truth. I have taught in college, and have found errors in the textbooks I was using for the course I was teaching! (This wasn't a science class, so don't think I just had a difference of opinion with an evolutionary textbook). My point is, try to keep an open mind in college. And don't accuse anyone you meet there who has religion of being " close-minded". Remember, if you can't consider THEIR point of view, YOU'RE the one being close-minded.
Good luck, and please don't be offended if I say I'll pray for you.
It was a rhetorical statement, I was not wanting or desiring a anwser.
There has been no ID paper published in a peer review scientific journal. I wounder why?
There is no God and Jesus never existed. It is all made up so the church can gain political power and money. So basically all your statments are irrelavant and with out merit.
Religion is for weak minded people who can not face the reality of this existance.
I do not want you to pray for me. I work at Hillsborough Community College www.hccfl.edu ( I work in IT) I talk to everybody there, biology professors, physic professors, math professors, archaeology professor, and a paleontologist. I guess they are all lying to me.
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